May 7, 2021
Lauren & I talk about her successes in my Chronic Pain Recovery Program.
One of the things I loved about working with Lauren was meeting her where she was with all her skepticism, doubt, confusion, disbelief that her pain could ever change.
She had lived for 20 years with weekly migraines and was told by Doctors that she should feel lucky that the meds for for her. How could a program that's only a few weeks change that? Not to mention having a very stressful job during a pandemic.
There's no reason to wait until life gets less stressful to change your relationship to pain. In this podcast you hear from her, describe not only her migraines being gone in 3 weeks but how this work has changed her relationship with her family and herself.
She showed up to this work with willingness and curiosity. Take a listen. If you're curious and willing and ready to get started, email me at email@example.com as I have a few spots available right now.
#BeYourOwnCompellingReason #FearBrainAndChronicPain #RewritingNeuralPathways #DrSarno #OurNervousSystemIsAlwaysListening #TMSCoach #QueerLifeCoach #FatLifeCoach #MindBodySyndrome #TheBrainIsMagic #SomaticPainRetaining
Welcome to Move With Deb. I'm Deb your friendly neuroplastician. And this is a podcast that explores the relationship between the body and the mind from a health at every size, judgment, free perspective. I teach you how developing a new internal conversation based on curiosity, self friendship and simple neuro-plasticity techniques can rewire your bodymind out of pain and emotional overwhelm to help you build the rich full life that you want to live. Disclaimer, this is not a replacement for medical care.
[00:00:50] Deb: Hi, and welcome to Move with Deb, the podcast. This is episode 13. It's an interview that I did with my client, Lauren, that you can find on YouTube, so you can see our beautiful faces. But I turned it into a podcast so you can listen on the go. And she describes her experience using this pain reprocessing course to get rid of 20 years of migraines and also 10 years of neck and shoulder pain that she was experiencing. She shares her experience of the tools that I taught. And how she was able to apply it. And her experience of coming to this work with a lot of skepticism. But also curiosity. And, I'm happy to share this interview with you. Enjoy.
[00:01:44] Lauren: So I am Lauren Ball. I'm an attorney in Arkansas. Um, I have had migraine for about 20 years and I experienced shoulder and neck pain for probably 10 years before I started the pain course.
[00:02:03]Deb: So what inspired you to sign up for the program?
[00:02:09] Lauren: Well, when I saw the program, I thought, okay, this is a way that I can have less migraines a week. I was taking a prescription medication multiple times a week for my migraine, um, which caused rebound migraines. And it was kind of a cycle that I was hoping to get out of. But at the time I really didn't think it was possible to never experience migraines. I was just hoping to maybe have like one or two a week.
[00:02:38]And I, you know, I was sort of hoping that it would help my shoulder neck pain, but at the same time, like I really believed that was pain that I would have forever.
[00:02:50] Deb: What was your experience like going through the program? So we chatted briefly about it then basically I just said here's a link. And then, go through the first week and then we'll chat.
[00:03:05] Lauren: Yeah. So the first week was really eyeopening for me because it was an introduction to the actual, like pain science, which I had heard of, but I wasn't really familiar with. And I think when I went through the whole first week materials, it kind of opened my mind up to. Oh, this is something that could actually, you know, get rid of pain. Like you can actually rewire your brain, which was a totally new concept for me. And so, uh, that kind of laid the foundation, you know, for me, for the whole course. And I think I started the materials on like a Saturday or a Sunday, and then it just kind of, it put that in my mind, like, this is how this could work, you know?
[00:03:48] And then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, I had no pain. Like no shoulder pain, no neck pain, no migraines. And I was completely freaked out. It's like, okay, what is happening? You know, what is this magic going on? I was like, like skeptical. And, and I was also really shocked because it had been, you know, a full 20 years of pain.
[00:04:11] And then, you know, all of a sudden I'm pain free for, you know, 3 days straight. It was just blowing my mind. And then, um, I would, I would have some symptoms come up. I think it was that Thursday, you know, and I had a different awareness of the pain and the symptoms, you know, after going one through the first week.
[00:04:34]And then we had our coaching, you know, and I feel like the one-on-one coaching helped me made things more concrete for me. Um, it also, I feel like, um, it like set me up for success. You know, it helped me actually apply. Like I learned the tools in the course, and then the coaching helped me like learn how to apply it to myself.
[00:04:57]So that was really helpful. And then I think we moved on to like your thoughts and your feelings after that, and also just observing your physical symptoms. And so when I would have the symptoms come up, I was able to realize what was kind of triggering those symptoms, which was new for me. You know, I had always thought this was just something that happens to me and will always happened to me. You know, but this time I was able to really see, this is, this happens and then I get the symptoms. And, and then I was able to identify this cycle of fear that I was jumping into about the symptoms, because you know, that had been explained to me in the program and I knew what to look for.
[00:05:40] And then I think we got into like the actual tools, which was like, self-compassion. And that was also a new concept for me and allowing your feelings, which was definitely new for me. And so that was, that was really, uh, I think what was most important for me because, um, when I said, okay, you know, I can offer compassion to myself and then I can also be willing to feel negative feelings and that can include pain well, then I just stopped having the symptoms all together. You know, and yeah, it was a crazy, it was a crazy whirlwind experience, but it was amazing. Yeah. And I'm still in shock.
[00:06:26]Deb: Because obviously you went to the doctor.
[00:06:28] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:06:29] Deb: You, you know, you had medication, you had migraines for 20 years. You went to the doctor probably more than one doctor, um, what did they tell you about what you were experiencing?
[00:06:45] Lauren: For my migraines? I was told, um, you know, this is genetic. And my only option is to continue to take medication. I could take, you know, preventative medication, but the side effects were pretty extreme. So I wasn't really open to that. Um, so what I ended up doing was I would take medication every time, you know, I got a migraine and I had lots of side effects from that as well. And the different doctors that I saw just basically told me that, you know, that was my option and that I should really be thankful that the medication works for me. You know, that I'm able to take it and just soldier on with the day that that was the best outcome that I could hope for.
[00:07:26] As far as my shoulder and my neck pain, I really hadn't been offered any kind of help that hadn't given me any relief. I had an x-ray and MRI and they showed no like structural issues. They couldn't point to anything that was wrong. We tried, uh, muscle relaxers, which did work, but also had detrimental side effects. So that didn't last very long. And then I've tried three different, uh, physical therapy programs and, you know, those were not successful either. And so it was just, you know, there wasn't any other options after that. So it was just like, well, you can take Aleve every day. And that was really the only thing that had been offered to me.
[00:08:11] Deb: There's the science about neural pathways and how the brain and nervous system interprets signals from the body. Then there's also this part that Dr. Sarno talks about, which are the personality types. So that was something you felt like you could see yourself in the personality types of people who were likely to kind of somaticize this resistance, I think is how I'm going to try to language that. Can you say more about that? Like did you have an aha moment? Like what was that like coming across that information?
[00:08:53] Lauren: Yeah. So I think that was the very first week. I think it was one of the first slides, you know, I'm just like casually, you know, watching the program and then it comes up either Dr. Sarno says, you know, personalities that are more likely to experience chronic pain. And I was like, Okay. This feels very, uh, pointed at me. You know, I feel very, uh, attacked right now and I saw the perfectionist, I think it was. And I was like, okay, that's definitely me. And then I saw the legalist and I was like, yes, I totally saw myself in that description.
[00:09:27] Um, And it just blew my mind. It was like every part of the program. It was just like, yes, this is me. This is, this was, this program was made for me, you know? And I think that kind of how I see myself or how my past self was that I wanted to be right. You know, in a way that was, I wanted to do everything perfectly to make sure I'm like the perfect spouse, the perfect employee, the perfect mom.
[00:09:50] And I had kind of an idea of what that would look like and boxes that I needed to check to get there. And so that's how I kind of checked to see if I'm like doing okay, you know, wasn't doing that. And it would not be okay to, you know, have negative feelings or, or negative emotion. And so I just resisted that, that kind of, I thought I would really just get in the way of me being you know, this perfect person who was doing everything right all the time. And so I was hoping that your program would just check that box for me and I can move on and trying to check the other boxes
[00:10:23] Deb: Yeah I kinda messed that one up, huh?
[00:10:25] Lauren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. When I got to the part in the program, it was like, we're going to talk about allowance. I was like, oh man, here we go.
[00:10:33] Deb: What did that feel like to be asked to examine uh, kind of examine the space around getting a migraine. Can you say more about that? What that felt like for you?
[00:10:50] Lauren: It felt really, uh, really foreign. I think the way that I described at the time was that I felt very raw, you know, because I had never looked into that. I had never looked at those emotions or even broken down the symptoms, you know, that I was having, I have kind of, uh, had these like pre symptoms, you know, um, or I would see like floaters and the left side of my face would go numb. And, um, that would kind of kick off this cycle of fear. I had never thought about what comes before that.
[00:11:19] You know, like what starts that? And so it was totally different for me. And the first time that I did it, I was like, oh, I'm feeling angry. I don't recall ever feeling this, you know, in the last 20 years. And, and then I was like, oh, I feel angry because I don't want to feel bad. And it kind of all fell together where my brain was like, Hey, look over here, look at these terrible floaters. Look your face is numb. Forget about being sad. You know, move on to the pain. And then, you know, we got into the part of the course where, you know, pain is to protect you. And it's like, it all just came together. It all made sense. And it was kind of a relief to know like, okay, this is why this is happening. And it is something that I could change.
[00:12:06]Deb: Your face going numb, sounds like a very scary and significant, like symptom that would be alarming and makes you think that there's something wrong, like on the inside, right? Like something wrong with your body.
[00:12:28] Lauren: Yes. Yeah.
[00:12:30] Deb: What was that experience like to watch that symptom change.
[00:12:37]Lauren: Well, I mean, the way that I used to experience the symptoms was like the first scary symptom would be left side of my face going numb. And then my vision would become blurred and I would get nauseous. And my whole left arm was numb. It would just kind of go downhill from there. Um, until I took the medication. And what I always thought, you know, in my mind was, well, if I didn't take this medication, you know, it's inevitable that I'm going to have these symptoms, and if I didn't have this medication, I couldn't possibly take care of myself or hold down a job or take care of my child, you know, like I need this and this is something I'll never be able to change. And if I don't have my medication, I'm in so much trouble. And so then I go through those and I mean, I'm having this, you know, four or five times a week.
[00:13:23] And so I go three days without a migraine was mind blowing and then I experienced the symptoms starts to come up and I was able to just, you know, ask myself, okay, what am I resisting feeling right now? And the first time that I did that practice and I realized, okay, I'm angry. It's because I'm sad. And it was just like a switch flipped and the symptoms literally just like faded away.
[00:13:50] And once again, I was totally freaked out. I was like, okay, wait, where, you know, what is happening? Where is the pain, you know? And then, um, I think later in the week, you know, something else happened where the symptoms started to come up again. And then I was like, okay, I have this tool in my back pocket. I'm going to try to use that. What am I resisting? But I kind of already gotten into like a panic, the panic mode. And so that was just like a frantic searching of my mind. So it was really not working out. And so I kind of went back to, okay, what have I learned in the course? You know, that it's really all about allowance and, you know,
[00:14:29] There's one part that talks about, you know, you have these thoughts that you don't have to like, always pick them up, you know, you can just let your thoughts go on and you know, it, it talks about. It talks about that in the course, how to do that and kind of visualize that in your mind. And so I'm doing that and I was just thinking, you know, it's, the pain can be over there. I don't have to engage with it and I can be willing to just allow this pain and to, and to not make it a scary thing. And as soon as I was willing to allow that pain, then the symptoms went away again.
[00:15:02] And so I think it really, I mean, it happened time after time. I was skeptical every time and then it worked every time. And so after a couple of weeks, you know, it just builds up my confidence. And now I know that if the symptoms do come up, you know, I know how to handle them and to really look into myself and see, like, how can I offer myself compassion?
[00:15:23]Deb: That's amazing. And I want to be clear, like I did not tell you not to take your medication.
[00:15:30] Lauren: No, that's right. Yeah.
[00:15:32] Deb: But I think what I ask you is before you take your medication, like make a little room to pay attention and you really were able to, I mean, you just took that and grew that and, and in the paying attention, you could watch it shift. Yes. Yeah. Very powerful.
[00:15:55] Lauren: Yeah. And that was another thing that helped me with the tool that we talked about. Uh, the somatic tracking, uh, that we practiced and I thought that's also, it's really skeptical. You know, that's not going to work. And you visualize your pain and your symptoms. And then, you know, the pain can move and shift. And the first time I was doing that with the numbness. Uh, it's always on the left side of my face, you know, when it happens and I'm doing the somatic tracking and it like moved over to like the bottom right side of my face.
[00:16:26] And I was like, okay, like these symptoms can change. Like if it can move, it can also recede. It was just, it was really helpful to be able to just observe the symptoms and not engage with them at the same time.
[00:16:42]Deb: Well, um, oh, I'm always just blown away.
[00:16:47] Lauren: I'm still blown away.
[00:16:48] Deb: I love that. This work has changed not only your pain experience, but just kind of your, how welcoming all your feelings and creating like a. A conversation of allowance inside of you has changed some things for you. Would you say more about that?
[00:17:11] Lauren: Yeah, so I was thinking today about, you know, when did I get out of the course, you know, and of course now I'm pain free, but also I would say the biggest thing that I got out of, it was just everything else that changed in my life. And I think, you know, I'm a recovering perfectionist now, you know, I wanted everything to be so perfect that I wasn't engaging in my life, you know, my own life. I was really just resisting, um, negative emotion, but that really resulted in, I was also resisting, um, positive emotion and also any connection. You know, any real connection with people. And so, as I started practicing allowance in the course, uh, I started feeling all kinds of emotion and also started, uh, feeling like I could have a genuine relationship with people in my life , you know, with spouse and with my son. And every time I felt, uh, you know, the feeling of connection or every time that I felt an emotion, it was just like, oh, wow.
[00:18:12] Like, That is, this is what joy feels like, how exciting that I get to experience this, you know? And then the same thing happened when I would feel sad. I'm like, wow. So this is what sadness feels like like after, you know, 20 years of resisting any feeling and I just felt lucky to be feeling the full human experience and to be able to have a human relationship, you know, with my son and with my spouse.
[00:18:38] And I just feel like I'm really engaged in my own life now, whereas before I was just trying to check the boxes, you know, of a life.
[00:18:47] Deb: That's amazing and it's not like it's a not stressful time.
[00:18:52] Lauren: Yeah, exactly.
[00:18:53] Deb: You didn't have to take your life and put it on hold to create this work. You were doing it while you're working full time in the middle of a pandemic. And I know that you work kind of in the midst of stuff related to COVID. So you know, this what's happening around us, the pandemic is very impactful on you. And so you had these experiences while within just being in your own life.
[00:19:25] Lauren: Yeah, probably honestly, the most intense, emotionally intense, you know, time of my life, you know, in recent history, due to the pandemic and how my job is kind of related to dealing with the pandemic. So I know that if I can experience my life right now in the midst of this pandemic and you know, my work and not have any pain, then I should be good for the rest of my life.
[00:19:51] Deb: That part of belief that we talked about, right is understanding, kind of the science about how the, how the brain works and how the neural pathways work. Right, right.
[00:20:03] Lauren: Yeah. I mean, I don't have, I don't feel like I engage in those neural pathways, the ones that were so strong for me for so long that I automatically jumped into at the beginning of the program. I mean, that is no longer an automatic response for me anymore. You know, I go back and I look at the notes that I took, you know, from the beginning of the week of the program and I just realized, you know, that doesn't happen for me anymore. Those switches just don't flip for me anymore. So I'm very thankful.
[00:20:33] Deb: Yeah. Wow.
[00:20:36]Lauren: I have no pain pathways in my brain now.
[00:20:39] Deb: You're like gliding down the no pain pathways and the more you travel down them, the more automatic they become also. Yeah. That's that is. I am still just, I mean, I'm in awe of this work, even though I am in a hundred percent full belief of it.
[00:20:59] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:20:59] Deb: Because, you know, it's, it, it is the, the human, the human part of it. Right. And so there's a lot of it that we don't obviously control, but I think what's so beautiful about having kind of shepherded you through this process is your willingness to, um, embrace this material and to really apply it to yourself. And, and it's not that you didn't have doubt, you had doubt and you were willing. You know you were skeptical and you were like, let's try it. And so it was both of those together that I think is so, so remarkable. Tell me a little bit about like your approach to like movement and exercise. Before going into the program and a little bit more kind of after it.
[00:21:54] Lauren: Okay. So before I started the program, uh, I had an intense stretching routine that like had to be done every single morning or I was guaranteed to get a migraine. And if I did, not, which I got them anyway, but if I didn't do my stretching routine, it was, you know, stretching my neck and my shoulders and everything. Then, uh, I felt a lot of you know, shame and guilt. And I just thought, well, I obviously like can't take care of myself. I didn't check that box off of, you know, what I'm supposed to be doing in order to like, be living this perfect life to take care of myself. Um, and that was about it. I mean, I did not engage in any other kind of like movement really. Um, and I think it was just because. You know, I didn't see the value in doing anything else. You know, I didn't see the value in investing in myself in that way or doing anything that would be enjoyable. You know, if it wasn't productive in a certain way, then it just didn't seem valuable to me. Um, now I did, he was like midway through the course, I quit stretching, like as soon as we started the course. Uh, it just didn't seem necessary after I learned about the, uh, pain science, you know? Um, but then about halfway through the course, I was like, you know, I think that I really, would want to do like regular yoga. Just like, maybe I would enjoy that, which is a new concept for me.
[00:23:21] And so I did yoga and I was like, wow, I actually just enjoy like the feeling of the stretching of the muscles and everything. And it was, and I was able to like notice how it felt. And it was a completely different experience. You know, before, when I was doing my stretching, which was the form of yoga, I would get like intense symptoms, like numbness throughout. Um, I'd get nauseous, you know, All kinds of like bad symptoms. And you know, now when I do yoga or any other kind of movement, I'm observing my body and how it feels, and there are no bad symptoms. I'm just actually enjoying it. And I've also, you know, since I did not move before, it's not always like the physically easiest thing ever. You know, when I decide I'm going to go for a walk, you know, with my son or, uh, you know, push him in his stroller for like a jog or anything, um, and so it's been really helpful to have this somatic tracking as a tool, you know? And so like, as I'm doing this new brand new movement to me, I kind of am able to apply the course to that as well.
[00:24:27] Like nothing bad is actually happening to me right now. I'm not going to die because I'm like a little tired or my, my feet are doing something new, you know? And so I'm able to know like, I'm number one, I'm not going to die. Like I don't have to stop. And, uh, number two, these symptoms. I can observe them and they can move and I can go on and like, enjoy the walk with my son.
[00:24:49] So now I'm really just doing movement for enjoyment. And also just because now I think it's worthwhile to invest in myself.
[00:24:59]Deb: Is there anything else that you wanna say or add that I didn't cover?
[00:25:04] Lauren: I don't know. I'm just excited for my own progress, but then also, like, I just want everyone, I want to like shout it from the rooftop. I want everybody like, get in here and do this. If you think you're living your life right now, you're not. And like, you know, like you can actually feel things in your life and you're going to be okay and it's actually going to be super enjoyable. Like I just feel like every day I'm becoming more human, you know, and it's just, I feel really lucky to have found the course and to have found you and to really be experiencing my life and my family, you know, finally.
[00:25:42] So I just want everybody to have that. Saying that one thing that I thought of that I think is super helpful about the course material is the way that it's presented. And, you know, it's a way that makes sense to lay people. You know, I'm not a physician. I really don't have any kind of background and you know, like the brain and things like that, and the way it was presented to me, it just was easy. Like, it was very, it was understandable, it was accessible. And so I understood it, but it was also presented, um, like in a way, like in an order that made sense, you know, it was just like every time that I heard something in the course, it was like at the moment that I needed to hear it, you know, and it just slowly like unraveled for me. And it made sense as a whole thing, you know, it wasn't like a, like a doctor coming in and explaining something to me and in like super technical terms. It was, it was user-friendly for sure.
[00:26:34]Deb: I gave you an instruction in the beginning of the course. Yeah, yes. Do you want to share that?
[00:26:43] Lauren: Yeah. So, um, I think it was our very first, uh, you know, session that we had. And I think you could tell, you know, you said something about like there's a link, you know, and a book or something. And I probably had this look in my eyes, like oh, I'm going to order that book and like 20 others. And, you know, I was, I was really interested with pain science anyway. And so, uh, I started to view the course as like another thing that I could accomplish perfectly. And you know, like, I'm going to have all these notes for you on the course, and I'm going to read like 50 books and I'm going to know every little thing about it.
[00:27:18] And, uh, you recognized that right away. And you were like, don't get like, it's not academic. You know, you don't have to get to intense or too crazy with it, you know, I don't remember how you worded it, but I was like, oh, that is definitely what I was about to do. And then a couple of days later I caught myself. Like I was on my phone, like, uh, had like four different, you know, pain science , Dr. Sarno's books in my Amazon cart. And I was like, step away from that, away from the cart, you know? And that helped me a ton because I was about to definitely turn it into like an intellectual exercise that I could just like get an A in.
[00:27:55] Um, and so when you said that, it kind of took me away from that and it made me pay attention to what was happening in my body personally and applying it to my personal life and not making it like, you know, something I would get a grade on. Yeah. Cause I definitely would have done that if you hadn't said that.
[00:28:13] Deb: I asked you to do something hard.
[00:28:17] Lauren: Yeah, I think it was always like, at the very beginning of the week after we'd like have our session, you're like, Okay. Like, here's your assignment, you know, which is always like feeling my feelings or like giving myself self-compassion or something like that, you know, I'm like, okay, sure. I can do that. You know, like three days later I'm like, oh, I feel like I'm dying. And you know, it was always like a process. Like it was still so intense. And then, uh, I was able to like, okay, I need to allow this. Like, that's what we talked about and, and create safety in myself. And then when I was able to do that, I was just able to watch myself go from like intense arousal and emotion to allowance, and then just like coming back down to like normal and, you know, and watching the symptoms recede. So, but it felt very intense at first, for sure. Yeah.
[00:29:08]Deb: Well, good job, like staying curious and riding, riding through it. It's definitely that process.
[00:29:17]Lauren: It was very curious about, you said, like be a lazy detective and that was helpful to me too, because I would have also, um, I would have taken that instruction, like to an extreme as well. I probably would have every single emotion that I'm feeling, I need to like write down and really, you know, investigate why I'm feeling that and everything. But I, you know, took the introduction of like the lazy detective and it took the stakes down, you know, like made it a little less intense for me. And that helped me a ton as well.
[00:29:49] Deb: Yeah. There's just something other than doing it right.
[00:29:54] Lauren: Yes. Yes. And that was new. Yeah. And every time I would feel the emotion come up, it was like, actually exciting for me, you know, even if it was a negative emotion, just because I had resisted feeling any emotion for so long that it was just like, wow, this is totally new. You know, I didn't really remember what it felt like to be, you know, genuinely sad or, you know, actually angry. You know, so it was almost exciting to, I felt like I said, you know, I feel like I'm going from a robot or, you know, someone that's like pretending to be human, to like slowly experiencing like, oh, this is what humans experience.
[00:30:34] This is how humans feel, like people that actually experienced their emotions. This is how they experience life, you know? And I thought that would be a horrible thing, but it turns out it leads to a much richer, you know, genuine life. And pain-free, by the way, that was a bonus. And, you know, he has heard me talk about medicine before the course or something, and he was like looking around in my bag and he's like medicine? I was like, no, I actually don't have any medicine in there. And I don't even know if I have any, and I don't even know if I have any refills. And that is completely a new experience for me, you know, before it was like an absolute panic thing.
[00:31:12] I had to make sure that I had my medication with me at all times, you know? And now it's to the point where like, I know I don't need it. And, you know, it doesn't create any panic for me. So that was kind of shocking to realize.
[00:31:27]Deb: That's amazing. I'm so happy. I never do anything ever again, I will, I feel very satisfied.
[00:31:39] Lauren: You know, I'm like, you know, I've thought about that. I'm like a lot of people they say like, I just want to like, change people's lives, you know? Like, well you have actually like concretely a hundred percent, you know, like really changed my life, changed how I experienced my life. For sure. Yeah.
[00:31:54] Lauren: You're welcome.
[00:31:55] Deb: Yeah. And that's the thing, like I, you know, I just presented you with some new ideas.
[00:32:02] Lauren: But I wouldn't have found those ideas. You know, that's the thing is like, those ideas are out there, but I wouldn't have found those ideas if I hadn't taken your course. And also it wouldn't have been presented altogether, like in this perfect little package and it wouldn't have been presented like in an order. Like I learned things really, as I needed, as they were coming up for me, it was like, well, then the next slide, like addresses that, you know, everything was there.
[00:32:27] It was like this tool kit that had everything that I needed. And then the one-on-one coaching. It's what made it like concrete, you know, like I had the tools, but I didn't necessarily know how to apply them to me personally. Like I realized some people like, look at all these people who are able to, you know, get rid of their pain, like that's great, you know, and I intellectually understood that going through the materials, but then once we did the coaching, I was, you know, I learned how to apply it to me.